Great piece Reece. Comparison to the Canada line is apt. Ironically I bet most Vancouver residents would love for its platforms to be twice the length for more capacity. It's suffering from success!
In any case I'm glad to see that line 5 likely isn't a big disaster like Finch or what we might have anticipated. Hopefully improvements come in the next few years. Trams with longitudinal seats and more doors would help. (Funnily enough I have thought that the Canada line trains could use the exact same changes for the next iterations.)
Great review. Thank you for suffering in the cold to bring us your insights!
While I agree the stations could use more colour and art, I think the colour is actually a partial way-finding tool. All of the stations that are transfer (or future transfer stations) have orange feature walls, non-transfer stations are shades of grey.
One annoying behaviour I noticed was that at far-side surface stops the trains pulled all the way to the end of the platforms as if they were already using 3 car sets. Which because of the single entry nature of the stops always results in a further walk for passengers. I saw a number of people get left behind in the frigid cold at those exposed stops because they had to walk the extra train length to board. Until they start running 3 car sets they should only pull in the 2 car lengths.
Here in Waterloo Region the Ion (same trains) does unlock the doors and allow for only those needed to be opened with the push of a button, but they only enable that behaviour during excessively long heat waves or cold snaps and the criteria seems kind of nebulous and inconsistent.
Thats a connection I didn't pick up on, neat! Could have done the color of the connecting line :)
Unfortunately they need to pull all the way in for signalling reasons, and because the screens the drivers use to validate nobody is between the cars are at the platform ends.
It's very different from what I would have designed myself, but it looks like they've done lots of things right. Encouraging to see that they've left room to make the trains longer, unlike the Canada Line. But I'm going to keep complaining about the trains not being painted red - especially at this time of year, the city could use all the colour it can get!
Enjoyed reading this. One other shortcoming is the sound system. I could barely understand the announcements of the arriving stations. Very muffled. “Eglinton” sounds like “Abe Lincoln.” Compare for example the MTR in Hong Kong where announcements are crystal clear. This appears to show that top-quality sounds systems do exist on public transport.
I hope Toronto transit can increase to the level where for you it is like loving (downhill) skiing but living in Toronto.
I notice you sometimes say it is and sometimes say isn't a subway, kind of tricky to say.
I rode it for a short trip (Dufferin street to Yonge street). I'd agree with you the insides have too many seats and not enough doors. The stations I saw are huge (remind me of the new stations on the University line like York University). I actually transferred at Eglinton-Yonge station, it is labyrinthian and confusing, however the stairs I took just lead to one end of the subway platform (I think), so that seemed relatively good access to the platform. Eglinton-Yonge is in my estimation not as confusing as Bloor-Yonge, but that is not saying much. I'm wondering if they could only add one car at the station, it felt like the platform could fit 2 more cars (4 total).
I'm not sure I'm down with the sameness of the design and style of the station. I'm used to subways built decades apart with vastly different style and design. I remember hearing an architect say that walking down a street in Toronto, the mishmash of architecture is like watching people have an argument. Having bizarrely different subway stations feels like a reflection of the city. 😉
Much as I'd love to ditch the car and fully embrace the TTC in this city, Line 5 doesn't convince me to take that leap. TEN flights of stairs between street and platform? Imagine that when the elevator is out and the escalators are being repaired. TTC = Take The Car.
True, however with public transit you have to fill up the Presto, run on their schedule, deal with crowding, can't always get where you want, and not always feeling safe travelling at night. Aside from just loving to drive, with a car you have complete freedom, privacy and safety. Take off on your time schedule and go anywhere you want. Day trips, driving to places too hard to get to on public transit, being able to load the car up at Ikea, Costco, etc. Not to mention the convenience of walking out the door into the privacy of your car with your own music, stowing parcels in the truck not lugging them on and off busses, and return home at night safely. If you pay the car off and take good care of it, it costs very little to keep. And bonus, if you have a manual transmission, the kids steeling cars can't drive stick!
You can automate Presto so it automatically fills up. I've never had to manually recharge it. And even if it didn't, a few Mouse clicks is as arduous as 10 flights of stairs?
I had a car for 6 years and I do not miss the costs. Some months I didn't use it once, yet still that insurance bill came up. I didn't feel nearly as much "freedom". Transit should be better so cars are not required. Spending a few months in Japan several years ago and seeing their transit gave me that freedom I still crave today.
It's all about lifestyle, comfort and affordability. What suits one person doesn't another. Running the sums, cost of my car and cost of TTC per month is actually pretty much the same.
It's down to affordability first and foremost, not lifestyle. We're not talking yachts and island cruises here. Insurance alone is more than a pass, so I find that claim unconvincing. I remember in 2015 as a first time driver with zero record and a nearly 10YO used, basic dodge minivan, I was quoted $250 at the absolute lowest. Modern cars are also junk and stuff breaks more often on them. Plus we've normalized debt and the average car payment (for those who have one) is around $700/m, which is a whole other can of worms.
Your original claim of wanting to not be car dependent, I don't get the sense that that is truly accurate. I happily couldn't care less if I never owned one again, so long as they remain an expensive luxury. This is why car sharing depots in neighbourhoods should be more of a thing, especially in suburbs. There's many of us here in places like places like Etobicoke and Scarborough who would use such a service for one-off occasions if they actually were available.
Apples and oranges. We lead quite different lives. I'm accurate about my $45 a month car insurance - clean record since I was 16 and I'm 74, and I drive a little 2000 VW bug that I bought for cash and I've kept in shape. I'd never own a big car or van, and the idea of a cruise makes me cringe. You were licensed only 10 years ago so your insurance rates will be higher. I tried car sharing briefly and hated it. I want my bug (with my shopping bags and DVDs) waiting for me when I want to pop up to Uxbridge, head down to the beach for the day, come back with a small load from Costco, and run a couple of other errands en route. I use TTC if I'm going downtown because traffic can be a mess, but otherwise I happily move between the two for now. If you grew up driving it becomes part of your life and it really is freedom.
Oh I'm familiar with the tube, and if you choose that, go for it. Same for 59th St at Lex subway in NYC, stairs galore. My point is: public transit is supposed to accommodate the public, not only people who can physically climb 20 flights of stairs.
Great writeup! Love your work. For me, my biggest concern is the escalators on the extremely deep, mined stations in the central portion of the line. It's funny: before the line opened, I routinely griped about the seemingly oversized footprints of the stations at ground level. They seemed so massively over-engineered for what were basically below-ground streetcar stops. (So I imagined at the time.) Now that my daily commute has me getting off at Avenue and Chaplin stations, I see things very differently. These are profoundly deep train stations, requiring a lot of infrastructure. They're so deep they're comparable to, and even exceed, London's notorious Northern Line, which back when I was a Londoner we called "the Misery line". Being so deep, they absolutely rely on escalators and elevators to get people up and down. It's simply way too many stairs for most people to expect to handle. With stations that deep, and vertical transport so crucial for the stations to function, they should have built spare escalators, as they do in the deepest metro stations across the UK and Europe. If the station is so deep that you absolutely have to take an escalator, then there better be three — not two — escalators available, so that if one goes down the whole station doesn't become useless. And the elevators are far too small to accommodate anyone if the escalators go down. Have you seen the elevators at really deep stations in the London Underground? They're massive, and there's typically more than one. Already, just days into its service, I find myself waiting for the lone, little elevator at Avenue Station because I can't be arsed to take five — FIVE! — escalators up from the platform. I already encountered a non-functioning up-escalator at Cedarvale — another very deep station — and it's only been four days of service. So that's my biggest gripe and concern.
>The trains, like those on Finch and the new streetcars (and actually GO trains),
> have buttons on the doors. This lets the doors remain closed as long as nobody is using them.
> On super cold days (like today) or super hot days this enables saving a ton of energy by not
> letting the heat out at a stop where nobody gets on, or at least by not opening more doors
> than necessary. The TTC already doesn’t use the door buttons on the streetcars,
> but again not sorting this out for a multi-billion dollar new line is ridiculous.
Line 5 also has stop request buttons on the vehicles, just like the legacy system but line 6 does not. I wonder why this post does not mention that.
Do consider the possibility that a busy system with appropriate stop spacing and appropriate door spacing may decrease the changes of some doors not being used.
> And before excuses are made — these buttons exist around the world and are used quite
> widely, there is not a Toronto-specific reason we cannot use them,
> besides not caring enough to do so.
Can you accept people having opinions that are not a complete fit for something that exists around the world? And that even opinions informed by best practice transport planning theory might not be a complete fit with what is (typically) used widely and even what is used quite widely in cities with better service and higher mode share? You do have a blogpost about how even some very well organized systems still do things that are sub-optimal.
I am asking because of criticism of passenger operated doors as being confusing to unfamiliar users and maybe less accessible. Also, almost no metros outside Europe have people pressing buttons to open the doors.
Just when I was trying to I imagine what an rmtransit video would be on the line, saw this pop up on my feed. Another well rounded analysis and summary Reece! Thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated it. Although I haven’t had the chance to ride it yet, I have things to look out for and look forward to.
“There are also all kinds of other system-wide improvements ahead of us in the next decade. The bus fleet will continue to become more highly-electrified.”
Is this an improvement? Aren’t the eBuses underperforming, especially in the cold?
Thanks for covering Eglinton Crosstown, very much appreciated. I didn't get your complain about door openings. Is ist automatic/driver-controlled or do you have to push buttons? In Germany where I live both variants exist.
Thank you for clarifying that. Personally, I prefer an automatic door opening for metro services because it is faster and more convenient. At least at busy stations where every door is used anyway.
One variation I have found is where the interior door buttons are on poles, not on the doors, and are also stop request buttons - if none of those door buttons are pressed and no one is waiting at a stop, the driver will not stop.
Thanks for all your work Reece. Been following you for years and was excited to see this pop up in my mail. Fantastic read.
I appreciate that Daniel. I hope you get a chance to try the line.
Great piece Reece. Comparison to the Canada line is apt. Ironically I bet most Vancouver residents would love for its platforms to be twice the length for more capacity. It's suffering from success!
In any case I'm glad to see that line 5 likely isn't a big disaster like Finch or what we might have anticipated. Hopefully improvements come in the next few years. Trams with longitudinal seats and more doors would help. (Funnily enough I have thought that the Canada line trains could use the exact same changes for the next iterations.)
The Canada line comparison not being made before shows how painfully provincial Toronto is.
Great review. Thank you for suffering in the cold to bring us your insights!
While I agree the stations could use more colour and art, I think the colour is actually a partial way-finding tool. All of the stations that are transfer (or future transfer stations) have orange feature walls, non-transfer stations are shades of grey.
One annoying behaviour I noticed was that at far-side surface stops the trains pulled all the way to the end of the platforms as if they were already using 3 car sets. Which because of the single entry nature of the stops always results in a further walk for passengers. I saw a number of people get left behind in the frigid cold at those exposed stops because they had to walk the extra train length to board. Until they start running 3 car sets they should only pull in the 2 car lengths.
Here in Waterloo Region the Ion (same trains) does unlock the doors and allow for only those needed to be opened with the push of a button, but they only enable that behaviour during excessively long heat waves or cold snaps and the criteria seems kind of nebulous and inconsistent.
Thats a connection I didn't pick up on, neat! Could have done the color of the connecting line :)
Unfortunately they need to pull all the way in for signalling reasons, and because the screens the drivers use to validate nobody is between the cars are at the platform ends.
It's very different from what I would have designed myself, but it looks like they've done lots of things right. Encouraging to see that they've left room to make the trains longer, unlike the Canada Line. But I'm going to keep complaining about the trains not being painted red - especially at this time of year, the city could use all the colour it can get!
The Canada Line did leave room to make the trains longer!
I would have liked orange, it would have complemented the orange touches in the stations nicely.
As I understand it, they could add a third carriage, but it would be shorter than the existing ones, and even that would require some renovations.
Enjoyed reading this. One other shortcoming is the sound system. I could barely understand the announcements of the arriving stations. Very muffled. “Eglinton” sounds like “Abe Lincoln.” Compare for example the MTR in Hong Kong where announcements are crystal clear. This appears to show that top-quality sounds systems do exist on public transport.
Yeah its very hard to hear. Some speakers seem to already be broken, announcements not loud enough.
Thanks Reece - glad to hear it moves at good speeds. What are the planned frequencies?
The volume of stations, mezzanines, and all the walkways is really high. Very interesting comparison to Vancouver, which was much cheaper.
Frequency was ~8-10 minutes on weekend, I think plan most of the time is 4m peak 8m off peak.
I hope Toronto transit can increase to the level where for you it is like loving (downhill) skiing but living in Toronto.
I notice you sometimes say it is and sometimes say isn't a subway, kind of tricky to say.
I rode it for a short trip (Dufferin street to Yonge street). I'd agree with you the insides have too many seats and not enough doors. The stations I saw are huge (remind me of the new stations on the University line like York University). I actually transferred at Eglinton-Yonge station, it is labyrinthian and confusing, however the stairs I took just lead to one end of the subway platform (I think), so that seemed relatively good access to the platform. Eglinton-Yonge is in my estimation not as confusing as Bloor-Yonge, but that is not saying much. I'm wondering if they could only add one car at the station, it felt like the platform could fit 2 more cars (4 total).
I'm not sure I'm down with the sameness of the design and style of the station. I'm used to subways built decades apart with vastly different style and design. I remember hearing an architect say that walking down a street in Toronto, the mishmash of architecture is like watching people have an argument. Having bizarrely different subway stations feels like a reflection of the city. 😉
Well I sometimes say its a subway because sometimes it is! From Laird to Mt. Dennis!
I definitely think Eglinton Yonge is more confusing than Bloor Yonge, there are many more levels and passageways, and a bus terminal!
Adding two more cars is going to be really tricky, they are designed for three and I think thats probably the max.
Much as I'd love to ditch the car and fully embrace the TTC in this city, Line 5 doesn't convince me to take that leap. TEN flights of stairs between street and platform? Imagine that when the elevator is out and the escalators are being repaired. TTC = Take The Car.
You don't have to pay for gas, or insurance, or get stuck in traffic, or park, or repair a car, or risk getting your car stolen, or buy the car.
True, however with public transit you have to fill up the Presto, run on their schedule, deal with crowding, can't always get where you want, and not always feeling safe travelling at night. Aside from just loving to drive, with a car you have complete freedom, privacy and safety. Take off on your time schedule and go anywhere you want. Day trips, driving to places too hard to get to on public transit, being able to load the car up at Ikea, Costco, etc. Not to mention the convenience of walking out the door into the privacy of your car with your own music, stowing parcels in the truck not lugging them on and off busses, and return home at night safely. If you pay the car off and take good care of it, it costs very little to keep. And bonus, if you have a manual transmission, the kids steeling cars can't drive stick!
You can automate Presto so it automatically fills up. I've never had to manually recharge it. And even if it didn't, a few Mouse clicks is as arduous as 10 flights of stairs?
I had a car for 6 years and I do not miss the costs. Some months I didn't use it once, yet still that insurance bill came up. I didn't feel nearly as much "freedom". Transit should be better so cars are not required. Spending a few months in Japan several years ago and seeing their transit gave me that freedom I still crave today.
It's all about lifestyle, comfort and affordability. What suits one person doesn't another. Running the sums, cost of my car and cost of TTC per month is actually pretty much the same.
It's down to affordability first and foremost, not lifestyle. We're not talking yachts and island cruises here. Insurance alone is more than a pass, so I find that claim unconvincing. I remember in 2015 as a first time driver with zero record and a nearly 10YO used, basic dodge minivan, I was quoted $250 at the absolute lowest. Modern cars are also junk and stuff breaks more often on them. Plus we've normalized debt and the average car payment (for those who have one) is around $700/m, which is a whole other can of worms.
Your original claim of wanting to not be car dependent, I don't get the sense that that is truly accurate. I happily couldn't care less if I never owned one again, so long as they remain an expensive luxury. This is why car sharing depots in neighbourhoods should be more of a thing, especially in suburbs. There's many of us here in places like places like Etobicoke and Scarborough who would use such a service for one-off occasions if they actually were available.
Apples and oranges. We lead quite different lives. I'm accurate about my $45 a month car insurance - clean record since I was 16 and I'm 74, and I drive a little 2000 VW bug that I bought for cash and I've kept in shape. I'd never own a big car or van, and the idea of a cruise makes me cringe. You were licensed only 10 years ago so your insurance rates will be higher. I tried car sharing briefly and hated it. I want my bug (with my shopping bags and DVDs) waiting for me when I want to pop up to Uxbridge, head down to the beach for the day, come back with a small load from Costco, and run a couple of other errands en route. I use TTC if I'm going downtown because traffic can be a mess, but otherwise I happily move between the two for now. If you grew up driving it becomes part of your life and it really is freedom.
Someone's never ridden the London Underground. Ten flights is nothing.
Oh I'm familiar with the tube, and if you choose that, go for it. Same for 59th St at Lex subway in NYC, stairs galore. My point is: public transit is supposed to accommodate the public, not only people who can physically climb 20 flights of stairs.
Great writeup! Love your work. For me, my biggest concern is the escalators on the extremely deep, mined stations in the central portion of the line. It's funny: before the line opened, I routinely griped about the seemingly oversized footprints of the stations at ground level. They seemed so massively over-engineered for what were basically below-ground streetcar stops. (So I imagined at the time.) Now that my daily commute has me getting off at Avenue and Chaplin stations, I see things very differently. These are profoundly deep train stations, requiring a lot of infrastructure. They're so deep they're comparable to, and even exceed, London's notorious Northern Line, which back when I was a Londoner we called "the Misery line". Being so deep, they absolutely rely on escalators and elevators to get people up and down. It's simply way too many stairs for most people to expect to handle. With stations that deep, and vertical transport so crucial for the stations to function, they should have built spare escalators, as they do in the deepest metro stations across the UK and Europe. If the station is so deep that you absolutely have to take an escalator, then there better be three — not two — escalators available, so that if one goes down the whole station doesn't become useless. And the elevators are far too small to accommodate anyone if the escalators go down. Have you seen the elevators at really deep stations in the London Underground? They're massive, and there's typically more than one. Already, just days into its service, I find myself waiting for the lone, little elevator at Avenue Station because I can't be arsed to take five — FIVE! — escalators up from the platform. I already encountered a non-functioning up-escalator at Cedarvale — another very deep station — and it's only been four days of service. So that's my biggest gripe and concern.
>The trains, like those on Finch and the new streetcars (and actually GO trains),
> have buttons on the doors. This lets the doors remain closed as long as nobody is using them.
> On super cold days (like today) or super hot days this enables saving a ton of energy by not
> letting the heat out at a stop where nobody gets on, or at least by not opening more doors
> than necessary. The TTC already doesn’t use the door buttons on the streetcars,
> but again not sorting this out for a multi-billion dollar new line is ridiculous.
Line 5 also has stop request buttons on the vehicles, just like the legacy system but line 6 does not. I wonder why this post does not mention that.
Do consider the possibility that a busy system with appropriate stop spacing and appropriate door spacing may decrease the changes of some doors not being used.
> And before excuses are made — these buttons exist around the world and are used quite
> widely, there is not a Toronto-specific reason we cannot use them,
> besides not caring enough to do so.
Can you accept people having opinions that are not a complete fit for something that exists around the world? And that even opinions informed by best practice transport planning theory might not be a complete fit with what is (typically) used widely and even what is used quite widely in cities with better service and higher mode share? You do have a blogpost about how even some very well organized systems still do things that are sub-optimal.
I am asking because of criticism of passenger operated doors as being confusing to unfamiliar users and maybe less accessible. Also, almost no metros outside Europe have people pressing buttons to open the doors.
Just when I was trying to I imagine what an rmtransit video would be on the line, saw this pop up on my feed. Another well rounded analysis and summary Reece! Thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated it. Although I haven’t had the chance to ride it yet, I have things to look out for and look forward to.
“There are also all kinds of other system-wide improvements ahead of us in the next decade. The bus fleet will continue to become more highly-electrified.”
Is this an improvement? Aren’t the eBuses underperforming, especially in the cold?
They are so much better than the mild underperformance is something I'll wave away. Each round has better range than the last.
Weird translation from Toronto to call this line a "métro léger" (light subway) for a LRT. It's a simple tramway.
This translation is made fairly often unfortunately.
Thanks for covering Eglinton Crosstown, very much appreciated. I didn't get your complain about door openings. Is ist automatic/driver-controlled or do you have to push buttons? In Germany where I live both variants exist.
The doors automatically all open despite there being buttons!
Thank you for clarifying that. Personally, I prefer an automatic door opening for metro services because it is faster and more convenient. At least at busy stations where every door is used anyway.
And at least on line 5, the vehicles even stop at them all.
One variation I have found is where the interior door buttons are on poles, not on the doors, and are also stop request buttons - if none of those door buttons are pressed and no one is waiting at a stop, the driver will not stop.
Or they store the request to open the doors when the vehicles stop at every station.
If they store the request to open, why not just have request stopping?
If they store the request to open, they might as well be stop request buttons.