Trolleybuses seem like a natural option for Toronto to add to the arsenal (as if there aren't already enough transit modes to be managed) given the experience with catenary & trams. Even just as streetcar replacements (there have been a *lot* of busses run for that purpose over the past few years, and probably the next as we slowly catch up on track maintenance.
I am curious how much cheaper trolley busses are to operate when the lack of diesel and (presumably) reduced maintenance needs & longer vehicle lives are taken together.
The ideas you raise around using the ~20km "off wire" capacity feels very forward thinking, have you seen any evidence that Vancouver is actually planning to use some or all of those options?
Frequently, though that may not be true for transit assets.
In general though, second hand goods have stood the test of time. You're getting the positive part of survivorship bias (the worst broke down and never made it to the second hand market) and someone else paid for the "new" premium.
Personal autos are a common example of this, new loses a lot of value right off the lot, so buying a vehicle a few years used saves a ton of money as someone else eats the first few years of steep depreciation. Ditto for cellphones, refurbed cellphones are often amazing value.
It's not a technical or operational comment...but one of appearance. All the shown buses have a sort of white stripe on the front that descends to the left. It makes the bus look like it is broken or has a fallen suspension on one side. Visual effects have some value in making transit attractive.
I also notice on some new trains and buses the skirting material along the top edge of the bus is no longer included. It exposes all the mechanical equipment clutter to view. Anesthetics matter in housing, cars, clothing, eyeglasses...but someone in a city back office decides to save a small amount of money by making transit uglier.
Thanks Reece. Do you know of any other Canadian agencies beyond Translink and Viva looking to Solaris or other European bus companies? Also, is there any public info on what the cost is of extending wires in Vancouver?
Bit late, but greetings from Poznań, Poland! The place Solaris originates from. I sometimes see some models being tested here and we also have some of the only Solaris trams here as well.
When you mention Rapidbus routes being primed to go electric, it made me wonder about the feasibility of utilizing the already established wires along 41st avenue to run R4 buses with the new Solaris 60 foots. Do you think a project like this would be possible given the existence of the 41 that also uses the infrastructure?
In https://nextmetro.substack.com/i/190537922/three-doors there is a "root" where you may have intended a route.
Trolleybuses seem like a natural option for Toronto to add to the arsenal (as if there aren't already enough transit modes to be managed) given the experience with catenary & trams. Even just as streetcar replacements (there have been a *lot* of busses run for that purpose over the past few years, and probably the next as we slowly catch up on track maintenance.
I am curious how much cheaper trolley busses are to operate when the lack of diesel and (presumably) reduced maintenance needs & longer vehicle lives are taken together.
The ideas you raise around using the ~20km "off wire" capacity feels very forward thinking, have you seen any evidence that Vancouver is actually planning to use some or all of those options?
Thanks, I've corrected.
Trolleys do feel natural for Toronto, and the city had them in the past!
Tbc the off wire capacity is 10 km one way, but yeah! Thats part of why they specc'd it!
The are definitely less expensive *if* you can cost effectively put wires up.
Three doors on a regular trolleybus is odd to this old NoFunCouver transit nerd but it's what we needed for decades. Na zdrowie (cheers in Polish)!
I'm quite excited to see how this improves the experience of riding! As you say more capacity has been needed for a long time!
By the way, can secondhand trolleybuses be good?
Can secondhand anything be good?
Frequently, though that may not be true for transit assets.
In general though, second hand goods have stood the test of time. You're getting the positive part of survivorship bias (the worst broke down and never made it to the second hand market) and someone else paid for the "new" premium.
Personal autos are a common example of this, new loses a lot of value right off the lot, so buying a vehicle a few years used saves a ton of money as someone else eats the first few years of steep depreciation. Ditto for cellphones, refurbed cellphones are often amazing value.
Exactly. Lots of secondhand transit vehicles have lived long productive secondhand lives.
Perhaps a good comparison here would be between getting newly manufactured low quality equipment and high quality secondhand equipment.
It's not a technical or operational comment...but one of appearance. All the shown buses have a sort of white stripe on the front that descends to the left. It makes the bus look like it is broken or has a fallen suspension on one side. Visual effects have some value in making transit attractive.
I also notice on some new trains and buses the skirting material along the top edge of the bus is no longer included. It exposes all the mechanical equipment clutter to view. Anesthetics matter in housing, cars, clothing, eyeglasses...but someone in a city back office decides to save a small amount of money by making transit uglier.
I don't think the stripe creates any issues, thats part of the asymmetric aesthetic, which I think is pretty good!
The map of the trolleys is from 2008, few changes until 2021 need an update.
Thanks Reece. Do you know of any other Canadian agencies beyond Translink and Viva looking to Solaris or other European bus companies? Also, is there any public info on what the cost is of extending wires in Vancouver?
Costs aren't too high iirc, they did some temporary ones during the broadway subway construction for example. Can be done in house which helps!
Other agencies I am unsure, presumably once Vancouver gets its buses there will be more interest!
Bit late, but greetings from Poznań, Poland! The place Solaris originates from. I sometimes see some models being tested here and we also have some of the only Solaris trams here as well.
When you mention Rapidbus routes being primed to go electric, it made me wonder about the feasibility of utilizing the already established wires along 41st avenue to run R4 buses with the new Solaris 60 foots. Do you think a project like this would be possible given the existence of the 41 that also uses the infrastructure?
Yes to all this! But in Ontario we’ve still got some ‘buy Canadian’ rules that would need changing, don’t we?
I don't think its any different honestly. Though the manufacturing is a little closer to home and so that might shape things.